2024 Irs rules on plasma donation 2022 reddit

At the paid centres, you can donate twice a week. There is tiered compensation based on plasma volume and donation frequency, starting at $30 and going up to $65. Donating takes at least an hour so I wouldn't call it a good use of time unless you were going to donate anyway.. Tamu university calendar

Print this coupon to earn an extra $10 on your second donation. BioLife Plasma Services: Earn up to $900 for your first 8 plasma donations. B Positive Plasma: Earn over $500 a month. BPL Plasma: …Page Last Reviewed or Updated: 22-Nov-2023. Find common questions and answers about gift taxes, including what is considered a gift, which gifts are taxable and …The amount your tax bill goes down from that deduction depends on your top tax bracket (since that's the bucket those dollars are "removed from"). With your income, you're in the 22% bracket, so a $300 charitable donation would reduce your final tax bill $300 * 22% = $66. Since there is no 100% tax bracket, the tax savings will always be less ...Biolife. $900 for new donors. Fast service. I’ve been donating there since December. Brings back memories of my broke college days selling plasma at the place on High St in the Short North for beer money. Octapharma plasma on Cleveland Ave. you get $100 first 7 donations and easy to get in. Yes, income from plasma donations are taxable. Income from any source is generally taxable. While you are arguably "donating" plasma, the cash being paid to you in exchange is not a donation. So the thing is, generally speaking, you donate the plasma, you're being paid for your time. For donations of property, additional recordkeeping rules apply, and may include filing a Form 8283 and obtaining a qualified appraisal in some instances. For details on how to apply the percentage limits and a description of the recordkeeping rules for substantiating gifts to charity, see Publication 526, available on IRS.gov.Shown Here: Introduced in Senate (04/21/2021) Plasma Donation Awareness Act. This bill includes plasma donation within the scope of a public awareness campaign by the Department of Health and Human Services concerning the importance of the blood supply and the need for blood donations during the COVID-19 (i.e., coronavirus disease 2019) emergency.The standard deduction for married couples filing jointly goes up by $800 for 2022. For single taxpayers and married individuals filing separately, the standard deduction increases by $400 for ...My guess is that you have to donate 2 times a week each week of the month to get the full $1000. Sometimes it's just donate a total of 6 times, or for 3 weeks, etc. And how much you make depends on your weight. Heavier people can donate more, so they make more. The lightest weight makes like $45/week, the heaviest was like $70/week.WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service today reminded taxpayers that a special tax provision will allow more Americans to easily deduct up to $600 in donations to qualifying charities on their 2021 federal income tax return. Ordinarily, people who choose to take the standard deduction cannot claim a deduction for their charitable ...You must fill out one or more Forms 8283, Noncash Charitable Contributions and attach them to your return, if your deduction for each noncash contribution is more than $500. If you claim a deduction of more than $500, but not more than $5,000 per item (or a group of similar items), you must fill out Form 8283, Section A.No, as a rule they don't pay you, you can not sell plasma or blood for a wage. What you can get is a "Aufwandsentschädigung", a monetary compensation for your time and the inconvenience. You are looking at something around 20-30 degree for a plasma donation. Since you need to get there, fill in the paperwork, have them take your vitals ...For thousands of Americans, donating plasma is a lifeline. In the 90 minutes it takes to donate, they make five times the federal minimum wage. Americans supply two-thirds of the world's blood plasma.The amount your tax bill goes down from that deduction depends on your top tax bracket (since that's the bucket those dollars are "removed from"). With your income, you're in the 22% bracket, so a $300 charitable donation would reduce your final tax bill $300 * 22% = $66. Since there is no 100% tax bracket, the tax savings will always be less ...Good morning, Quartz readers! Good morning, Quartz readers! Coronavirus patients in the US can now be treated with blood plasma. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) gave emergen...First time donors get extra money for doing it. It's going to take a few hours if not more so bring something to do and make sure you have time. Try to find out if you have talecris plasma in your area, they are cleaner, safer, and usually more money per donation. Eat lots of protein and drink water.The first 8 donations can add up to about $825, which can be done in a month if you time it all right, since you can only donate twice a week/once every other day. After that, the amount you get depends on your weight. I am under 120lbs so I only get $40 per donation, but if you're heavier you can get upwards of $55 per donation.Yeah I’ve posted my opinion for people to donate plasma when asking for ways to make money. It’s about 50/50 if I get downvoted bc shame on me to recommend selling my time donating fluids that regenerate as opposed to selling my time in a regular job. I also use it to supplement my normal job.The IRS requires your 2023 adjusted gross income (AGI) to verify your identity for e-filing. How do I amend my federal tax return for a prior year? If you need to change or correct some info on your tax return after you've filed it in TurboTax, you may need to …But everything does start over after 6 months if you don't donate again by then. But the most profitable way to donate is definitely twice a week. My center offers a bonus for the second donation of the week, every week, as well as a $50 bonus for making 8 donations in a month. Sometimes they also offer a bonus for the 6th donation.The amount your tax bill goes down from that deduction depends on your top tax bracket (since that's the bucket those dollars are "removed from"). With your income, you're in the 22% bracket, so a $300 charitable donation would reduce your final tax bill $300 * 22% = $66. Since there is no 100% tax bracket, the tax savings will always be less ...The CARES Act let taxpayers using the standard deduction take an additional deduction of up to $300 of cash charitable contributions made through 12/31/2021. This will not apply in 2022 and taxpayers taking the standard deduction will not have any additional deductions for charitable contributions available to them. Reply.As the United States allows for twice a week donations that can range from $30 to $50 a donation, you might rack up quite a bit if you are a regular plasma donator. For an example of how your earnings can stack up, let’s say that your local plasma donation center pays $30 per donation, and you donate twice a week. So, that’s $60 a …The other person is wrong. You are selling your plasma and that is taxable income. This was clearly established in the Tax Court case of Green v. Commissioner (1980). In fact, you may even be considered to be in the business of selling your plasma, which means you'll have to pay self-employment tax. But you would be allowed some business ... Yes, blood is a tangible good. It’s taxable income and is considered employment. So it would be a violation. HOWEVER. most places pay with gift/debit cards (which may as well be cash and thus untraceable) and if it’s below the tax threshold, they don’t have to report to the irs so there’s no paper trail. the decision is yours. I've been ... The CARES Act let taxpayers using the standard deduction take an additional deduction of up to $300 of cash charitable contributions made through 12/31/2021. This will not apply in 2022 and taxpayers taking the standard deduction will not have any additional deductions for charitable contributions available to them. Reply. The CARES Act let taxpayers using the standard deduction take an additional deduction of up to $300 of cash charitable contributions made through 12/31/2021. This will not apply in 2022 and taxpayers taking the standard deduction will not have any additional deductions for charitable contributions available to them. Reply.Here’s how it works: You give $10,000 on Jan. 1 and another $10,000 on Dec. 31. This strategy allows you to claim the $20,000 gift as an itemized deduction on your tax return for the year in ... Yes, income from plasma donations are taxable. Income from any source is generally taxable. While you are arguably "donating" plasma, the cash being paid to you in exchange is not a donation. So the thing is, generally speaking, you donate the plasma, you're being paid for your time. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) rules for assisted living expenses are laid out in IRS Publication 502 Medical and Dental Expenses. Individuals in assisted care or relatives sup...Typically your first visit will take about 3-4 hours due to paperwork and screenings. After that, you are looking at 1-1.5hrs and get paid anywhere from $150-$250. A lot of places have bonuses going, like mentioned above (if you donate 8x in a month, you get $250).Yes. It is taxable. You would report it as "Other Income" as if you received a 1099. United States v. Garber. This direct criminal appeal involves the novel question of the taxability of income derived from the sale of a person's own blood plasma. Dorothy R. Garber was convicted after a jury trial of one count of a three-count indictment ...I have been doing any plasma since October and I plan to do it regularly. I don't mind including it in my food stamps but I don't really know like what category or what I should put in there. Just need some help cuz I want to do everything right. I’ve never donated plasma so I don’t know how they pay, but the general rule is if they take ... r/plassing is better for this. Previous comment mentioned that 4 times in three weeks is a lot. It's not. Federal regulations allow for 2 donations in 7 days, with at least a day in between donations. It sounds like you had a citrate reaction AND a vasovagal reaction. But everything does start over after 6 months if you don't donate again by then. But the most profitable way to donate is definitely twice a week. My center offers a bonus for the second donation of the week, every week, as well as a $50 bonus for making 8 donations in a month. Sometimes they also offer a bonus for the 6th donation.As other's have said, the basic deal is that if you donate $1 to a charity, the government agrees to deduct $1 from your tax bill at the end of the year. Nope. It means that the government taxes you on whatever you earned that year minus $1. So if your marginal tax rate is 25%, that $1 donation means a $0.25 reduction in your tax bill.r/plassing is better for this. Previous comment mentioned that 4 times in three weeks is a lot. It's not. Federal regulations allow for 2 donations in 7 days, with at least a day in between donations. It sounds like you had a citrate reaction AND a vasovagal reaction.Like-kind exchanges -- when you exchange real property used for business or held as an investment solely for other business or investment property that is the same type or “like-kind” -- have long been permitted under the Internal Revenue Code. Generally, if you make a like-kind exchange, you are not required to recognize a gain or loss ...Reg. §1.170A-13 (f) (8). For 2024, a charity can tell a donor that his or her gift is fully deductible if: The donor receives benefits having a fair market value of $132 or 2% of the payment ... Thousands of people safely and painlessly donate plasma every day. Plasma donation is performed in a highly controlled, sterile environment by professionally trained medical team members following strict safety guidelines for each donor's comfort and well-being. Grifols uses sterile, one-time-use materials that are disposed of immediately. Deduct your self-employed car expenses on: Schedule C (Form 1040), Profit or Loss From Business (Sole Proprietorship) or. Schedule F (Form 1040), Profit or Loss From Farming if you're a farmer. If you're an Armed Forces reservist, a qualified performing artist, or a fee-basis state or local government official, complete Form 2106, Employee ...Dec 4, 2023 · Charitable contributions, or donations, are gifts of goods or money to a qualified organization. These contributions may be deducted on your tax return if you itemize to lower your taxable income for the tax year. A charitable contribution is voluntary, and is made without getting, or expecting to get, anything of equal value in return. Why are plasma centers so sexist and homophobic. The guidelines from a local plasma center to me says if you're a "male" who has sex with a "male" never donate. They are that homophobic huh. I actually got denied cus my heart rate was too high I take Adderall. 86. Plasma “donation” on the other hand can be paid. There are a lot of private Plasma donation centers, and they sell the Plasma to biotech companies to use for making medications and products. The pay is anywhere from $45-$100 per donation. Higher pay is usually for new donors. Those places also don’t provide snacks. How is it in Denmark? You can donate 100% of your yearly income to any church. However, there are limitations on how much of that donation you can claim as a tax deduction since you will still have to pay federal tax on your gross income earned in a year. Broadly, you can make deductible charitable contributions up to 60% of your adjusted gross income.Do I have to report my earnings from donating plasma on taxes? Taxes I've read that you don't have to file on cash income if it's less than $10k but I also read that you have to …When it comes to plasma donation, choosing the right center is crucial. Grifols, a leading global healthcare company, is renowned for its state-of-the-art plasma donation centers. ...Health FSA contribution and carryover for 2022. Rev- enue Procedure 2021-45, November 10, 2021, provides that for tax years beginning in 2022, the dollar limitation under section 125(i) on voluntary employee salary reduc- tions for contributions to health flexible spending arrange- ments is $2,850.All the FAQs say a plasma donation takes ~1.5-2 hours, with the actual donation time being about 30-45 minutes ( per Vitalant ) I have my first plasma donation tomorrow morning (been regularly donating whole blood, but as AB blood type, thought it would be good to start donating plasma, also) and wondering how y'all pass the time.Are you required by law to report all income? Yes. Will the IRS ever catch you if the plasma center does not report the payment to the IRS (aka issuing you a 1099)? No.The first 8 donations can add up to about $825, which can be done in a month if you time it all right, since you can only donate twice a week/once every other day. After that, the amount you get depends on your weight. I am under 120lbs so I only get $40 per donation, but if you're heavier you can get upwards of $55 per donation.All the FAQs say a plasma donation takes ~1.5-2 hours, with the actual donation time being about 30-45 minutes ( per Vitalant ) I have my first plasma donation tomorrow morning (been regularly donating whole blood, but as AB blood type, thought it would be good to start donating plasma, also) and wondering how y'all pass the time.Employees must report tips to the employer by the 10th of the month after the month the tips are received. For example, tips received by an employee in August 2020 are required to be reported by the employee to the employer on or before September 10, 2020. If the 10th falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, an employee may give the ...June 4, 2019 3:49 PM. Yes, you should report money received by donating plasma. If you did not receive any documentation (ex, W-2 or 1099-MISC). Here's where you can report what was earned. In TurboTax Online: Go to Federal Taxes then Wages & Income. Next scroll down to Less Common Income and click on Miscellaneous Income.Non-cash donations of $5,000 or more. If your non-cash single charitable donation for one item or a group of similar items is more than $5,000: The organization must give you a written acknowledgement. You must keep the records required under the rules for donations of more than $500 but less than $5,000. If you’re calculating if a deduction ... Unless you are self-employed and owe self-employment tax, you don't have to file a tax return if your income is less than $12,950, because the standard deduction will cancel out all your income and you will owe no income tax anyway. Keyword Research: People who searched irs rules on plasma donation 2022 also searchedNov 3, 2021 · WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service today reminded taxpayers that a special tax provision will allow more Americans to easily deduct up to $600 in donations to qualifying charities on their 2021 federal income tax return. Ordinarily, people who choose to take the standard deduction cannot claim a deduction for their charitable ... Donating plasma has almost no effect on running. For maybe 24-48 hours after your anaerobic performance might drop a bit, but only slightly. I donated plasma 2x a week while running 50-70mpw for 6+ months. I would donate on Wednesdays after my MLR and then Thursday was my recovery day so just 5-6 real easy miles.So I donate plasma 2x a week. I'm just wondering if these red marks will fade when I decide to stop for good. I know there will be scar tissue, but my hope is that it will be slightly lighter than my skin color, and that they won't stay red like they are now.. thanks in advance!Driven by increasing demand for medications that incorporate plasma from healthy donors, the global plasma market is forecast to reach $45.7 billion by 2027, up from $33.2 billion in 2022 ...Thousands of people safely and painlessly donate plasma every day. Plasma donation is performed in a highly controlled, sterile environment by professionally trained medical team members following strict safety guidelines for each donor's comfort and well-being. Grifols uses sterile, one-time-use materials that are disposed of immediately.My guess is that you have to donate 2 times a week each week of the month to get the full $1000. Sometimes it's just donate a total of 6 times, or for 3 weeks, etc. And how much you make depends on your weight. Heavier people can donate more, so they make more. The lightest weight makes like $45/week, the heaviest was like $70/week.Sleep well. Try to arrive for your plasma donation well-rested. Although everyone has different sleep needs, aim for around 8 hours of sleep the night before. Drink plenty of water. Giving plasma can reduce your blood volume by about 800 milliliters—or about 32 ounces. About 2 or 3 hours before your appointment, consider drinking at least ...If you donate 6-8 times in your first month you can take home $800-1200 depending on your area and the time of the new donor promotion. In my area its $40 for the first donation of the week and $80 for the second and Im getting frequency bonuses of $20 for going about twice a week. Its easy and I already eat high protein and cals every day. My guess is that you have to donate 2 times a week each week of the month to get the full $1000. Sometimes it's just donate a total of 6 times, or for 3 weeks, etc. And how much you make depends on your weight. Heavier people can donate more, so they make more. The lightest weight makes like $45/week, the heaviest was like $70/week. Thousands of people safely and painlessly donate plasma every day. Plasma donation is performed in a highly controlled, sterile environment by professionally trained medical team members following strict safety guidelines for each donor's comfort and well-being. Grifols uses sterile, one-time-use materials that are disposed of immediately.The standard deduction for married couples filing jointly goes up by $800 for 2022. For single taxpayers and married individuals filing separately, the standard deduction increases by $400 for ... 8K subscribers in the Blooddonors community. This is a Subreddit for blood donors, existing and potential. Post your donation pics, discuss your… I’m not sure if it’s different for whole blood donations or not. A $25 Amazon card “costs” 1750 points- so 3.5 donations. So… it’s definitely not much, but they do have a rewards program for donors. I believe it counts as a gift, not compensation, at least partly because it’s gift cards, not cash. KamikazeChrista.As other's have said, the basic deal is that if you donate $1 to a charity, the government agrees to deduct $1 from your tax bill at the end of the year. Nope. It means that the government taxes you on whatever you earned that year minus $1. So if your marginal tax rate is 25%, that $1 donation means a $0.25 reduction in your tax bill.For donations of property, additional recordkeeping rules apply, and may include filing a Form 8283 and obtaining a qualified appraisal in some instances. For …They have new donor bonus that is $900/1000/1100 depending on when you sign up (promotions change from time to time). It's for your first 8 donations done within 45 days. Even as a regular donor, I do still make decent pocket money. It's $20 first donation of week and $90 for second donation of week.Because of that some donation services block gay male donors, it isn't the right way to maintain the safety of donations but there is a reasoning behind it. Over the last few years some donation services have started to change the rules to select and reject donors based on their individual risk rather than blanket banning people based on gender ...They've recently changed their pricing tiers, but basically, if you go regularly, you max out at $65 per donation. So in the first month, you can make $895.00. After your special promotion, it should just be $65.00 per donation. Meaning $520/month at 2 donations per week if you're going consistently. Otherwise, you'll fall into lower pricing tiers.Yes. It is taxable. You would report it as "Other Income" as if you received a 1099. United States v. Garber. This direct criminal appeal involves the novel question of the taxability of income derived from the sale of a person's own blood plasma. Dorothy R. Garber was convicted after a jury trial of one count of a three-count indictment ...New donor fees are $100 for the first 8 donations. There's also Octapharma, and they have some kind of scale or tier system for returning donors, plus compensation is based on your weight (which determines how much plasma you can donate at a time). Returning donors can get anywhere between $35 per donation, up to $75 I believe. The pay rates can differ from location to location, but in my area, CSL currently pays $100 for donation #1, $125 for donation #2, and $100 for donations #3-8. You can donate 2x per week. Please make sure to change the auto fill email on the form ( [email protected] ) to your own in order to receive your verification code to sign up. Form 1099-K is an IRS informational tax form used to report payments received by a business or individual for the sale of goods and services that were paid via a third-party network, often referred to as a TPSO or credit/debit card transaction. The IRS requires TPSOs, such as PayPal and Venmo, to issue a Form 1099-K, which shows the total ...No, as a rule they don't pay you, you can not sell plasma or blood for a wage. What you can get is a "Aufwandsentschädigung", a monetary compensation for your time and the inconvenience. You are looking at something around 20-30 degree for a plasma donation. Since you need to get there, fill in the paperwork, have them take your vitals ...Reg. §1.170A-13 (f) (8). For 2024, a charity can tell a donor that his or her gift is fully deductible if: The donor receives benefits having a fair market value of $132 or 2% of the payment ...It is also assumed that since it is a donation of plasma which is a body fluid, it should be devoid of taxes. Since taxes cannot be paid on body fluids, people assume that it applies to plasma donations as well. However, that is not the case. Plasma donation as taxable income can be a source of curiosity to many people.The rules regarding donations in Louisiana, as in most states, depend on the type and amount of donation a person would like to make. Political campaigns quite frequently have a ma...You can donate plasma as often as twice a week, and most people do it once or twice a month. The process takes about an hour, and you can usually make $25-50 per donation. So if you donate plasma regularly, it can be a nice little side hustle. However, you should be aware that plasma donations are not tax-deductible.Please contact your local collection center. Get answers to frequently asked questions about plasma donation with CSL Plasma. Learn how much we pay, how to donate plasma, what it feels like, and more.Thousands of people safely and painlessly donate plasma every day. Plasma donation is performed in a highly controlled, sterile environment by professionally trained medical team members following strict safety guidelines for each donor's comfort and well-being. Grifols uses sterile, one-time-use materials that are disposed of immediately.We calculate the amount of the Underpayment of Estimated Tax by Individuals Penalty based on the tax shown on your original return or on a more recent return that you filed on or before the due date. The tax shown on the return is your total tax minus your total refundable credits. We calculate the penalty based on: The amount of …Non-cash donations of $5,000 or more. If your non-cash single charitable donation for one item or a group of similar items is more than $5,000: The organization must give you a written acknowledgement. You must keep the records required under the rules for donations of more than $500 but less than $5,000. If you’re calculating if a deduction ...First time donors get extra money for doing it. It's going to take a few hours if not more so bring something to do and make sure you have time. Try to find out if you have talecris plasma in your area, they are cleaner, safer, and usually more money per donation. Eat lots of protein and drink water.Yes, all income is considered taxable unless specifically excluded by law. These payments do not count as gifts because they were made in exchange for something. Payments …

THey have $100 for first 10 donations in 45 days for new people right now in a LOT of locations. They have an app you can keep track of your days, see what pay you'll get each time before you even go in. App let's you do the question pre screen before you even get to the center. Their normal pay is great now too I'm getting $80 per donation.. Infantry agsu

irs rules on plasma donation 2022 reddit

View community ranking In the Top 50% of largest communities on Reddit. 12 Highest-Paying Plasma Donation Centers In 2022. radicalfire. comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment More posts you may like. r/TheMoneyMix • 12 Highest-Paying Plasma Donation Centers In 2022 ...Reddit's home for tax geeks and taxpayers! News, discussion, policy, and law relating to any tax - U.S. and International, Federal, State, or local. The IRS is experiencing significant and extended delays in processing - everything. Don't post questions related to that here, please.Plasma donation center recommendations? I’m really strapped for cash and wanted to see if anyone has any experiences or knowledge that would help me narrow down on where to go. CSL will dish out $100-150 for the first eight donations, but the best one is all the way out off Parmer and Dessau.Driven by increasing demand for medications that incorporate plasma from healthy donors, the global plasma market is forecast to reach $45.7 billion by 2027, up from $33.2 billion in 2022 ...Ok, there are a bunch of moving parts, and some are different for 2020 / 2021 (and those differences will currently go away for 2022). In typical non-covid tax years, charitable donations are an "itemized deduction", claimed on Schedule A of your return. This counts both cash and item donations.All income is taxable. Payment received for plasma donation is considered taxable income. If the clinic pays out >$600, then by law the clinic must issue a 1099 to you (and the IRS) to show the amount paid. Regardless of whether or not a 1099 is issued, you are still expected to report the income. Tax paid is dependent upon applicable income ...Now that we understand the general rules and importance of deductible donations, let’s figure out what makes church donations eligible for deductions. IRS Definition of Recognized Churches and Religious Organizations. In order for a church or religious organization to be given tax-exempt status, it must meet a list of requirements …From a Q&A posted on turbotax earlier this year [ Link ]: "Payments for your plasma sale activity are taxable income but not self-employment income. Therefore, you will pay income tax, but not social security or medicare …Do I have to report my earnings from donating plasma on taxes? Taxes I've read that you don't have to file on cash income if it's less than $10k but I also read that you have to …Nov 22, 2023 · Below are some of the more common questions and answers about Gift Tax issues. You may also find additional information in Publication 559 or some of the other forms and publications offered on our Forms page. Included in this area are the instructions to Forms 706 and 709. Within these instructions, you will find the tax rate schedules to the ... Employees must report tips to the employer by the 10th of the month after the month the tips are received. For example, tips received by an employee in August 2020 are required to be reported by the employee to the employer on or before September 10, 2020. If the 10th falls on a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, an employee may give the ... BioLife Plasma Compensation. I just finished my first month (got a cool $1,050 - whoo!), so I'm wondering -- does anyone know how much they give you for first and second donations when the promotion expires? Thanks! While it varies, it's usually $30-$40 for the first visit of the week and $80-$90 for the second visit of the week. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Form 8283 describes deductions for noncash charitable contributions worth $500 or more. This includes both single contributions and groups of similar items. For instance, you need to fill out the form if you donate an old vehicle worth $1,000 or a bag of clothing worth a total of $600.The maximum credit you can claim each year is: $1,200 for energy property costs and certain energy efficient home improvements, with limits on doors ($250 per door and $500 total), windows ($600) and home energy audits ($150) $2,000 per year for qualified heat pumps, biomass stoves or biomass boilers. The credit has no lifetime …A future interest in tangible personal property. A patent or other intellectual property. Please refer to Publication 526, Charitable Contributions, for these contributions. The tool is designed for taxpayers who were U.S. citizens or resident aliens for the entire tax year for which they're inquiring. If married, the spouse must also have been ....

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